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Crested Color Description & Genectics..

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#1
TexasChic

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Sorry for the bugging on such topics but things of this nature facinate me and I can't seem to find the info on the web anywhere so I'll just bug y'all with my questions :D Crested Color QuestionsApricotBlackBlack White & TanBlueChocolateCreamWhiteSlatePalominoPink & SlatePink & ChocolateThose are the colors listed on the AKC registration form....anyone care to give a definition of each?? For example this taken from the GDCA Illustrated Standard: "Fawn - The color shall be yellow gold with a black mask. Black should appear on the eye rims and eyebrows, and may appear on the ears and tail tip. The deep yellow gold must always be given the preference. White markings at the chest and toes, black-fronted dirty colored fawns are not desirable" So basically the best text description you can give for the color :wink: I'm sure many people's definitions of colors are a bit different, but after looking throug many websites some of it is a bit confusing to me. For instance...I have seen some powderpuffs marked as "Sable" but I don't see that option on the AKC registration form..so what would a pup of that color be called?Many of these colors I haven't seen...such as an apricot, a blue or a chocolate. I think I know what a palomino looks like but I may be wrong on that one. Does the color "Palomino" apply to a HL or is it just for puffs? (Meaning is there a such thing as Palomino SKIN color)Next part of the question....kind of delves into Genectics a bit. I haven't see a chocolate or a blue Crested..anyone have a picture by any chace of either?? J.P Yousha does a whole slew of color genectic studies in Great Danes and I find them facinating....many things are "common knowledge" in Great Dane folks such as Fawn is recessive and black is dominant...two fawns can't produce a black no matter what is behind them, but if blacks carry for fawn, breeding two blacks can produce fawns. So are there any colors in Cresteds that are dominant gene colors? Say is there a way to help you get the colors your wanting in a litter by saying "Dog X is dominant for XXcolor & if I breed to this XX color I will definately get XXcolor" Or is the colors in Cresteds so mixed and varied that it's pretty much a pot luck draw on colors on a litter?? And what about Blues?? I've seen some that I would call slate, but others were calling blue. Blue...to the best of my knowledge (going on my GD knowledge again) is a genectically dilute black and to be a true blue it can't have a dark nose. Chocolate Danes are almost non-existant...and the few that are out there were accidents caused by severe cross color breedings by BYBers...one girl on a Dane board claimed she had a dark chocolate Dane....when in fact he was a black who had been left outside way too much and the sun bleached his coat a deep chocolate color (this has happened to my boy a few times in patches when we go to the lake..lol) The key give away on her dog was the nose though. It was a solid black nose and to be a true chocolate it had to have a liver colored nose...Also..on this issue of markings....Does anyone know where spots stand from a genectic standpoint?? Would it be considered a dominant gene or recessive?And last but not least....lol has anyone even done studies to find gene markers for various colors and such in Cresteds?? If not then I'll just take what color info people who have been in the breed and seen the outcome of many crosses as the "gospel" on this topic. :) No...none of this is really important in the big scheme of things, but I do find this sort of thing really interesting :)

#2
Chelsey

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My Remmy (the boy on the left) is a blue. To be a blue you must have nose skin that is not black. His nose skin is grey, but you can only tell when you compare it to a true black nose. Also when he was a pup he was SKY blue. I am talking you wouldnt have called him any other color in the book, he was BLUE. Without his tan he still gets that blue hue back. You can add other colors to the AKC forms. Slate is the all reaching color that really does cover MOST cresteds who are not chocolate, blue, brown or self colored. Puffs you decide color based on coat, HL you decide color based on skin. So for hl you are not likely to have an apricot or cream. Those are typically coat colors. A palomino has a fleshy color of skin and a fleshy color of nose. My Olivia is more of a red or chocolate as her spots and nose are very dark. Palominos tend to stay light even in the sun. Black is DOMINANT. A true black will throw black pups. Other colors you need to look at what is BEHIND the parents to get an idea of what you are going to get. Cresteds are definately a rainbow breed. You can get nearly anything. Spts are not dominant. You see more solis than spots. There are no studies done to the best of my knowledge.

#3
Chelsey

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Here is an excellent article by Nancy Larson you might find interesting on the genetics of teh chinese crestedwww.ourcresteds.com/downloads/chinesecrested.doc

#4
TexasChic

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Thanks!!! Very interesting....the blue and the black in Cresteds is like it is in Danes so I have a grasp of that one (maybe it's like that in all breeds come to think about it) ;) With black being dominant..say you bred a black to a spotted like Oliva...I would assume that the outcome would be predominately solid? And black to black breeding would produce black and no spots right? Or is there such a thing as a crested that is spotted, but the spotting being true black (not slate)??I didn't know you could add colors on AKC though...when registering you fill in the color code number so is there a way to get a number for a color not on the list?? And Oliva...she is just gorgeous. :) I told hubby one of these days I'll get a spotty baby like her (his reply was.."What..we have 2 already!!" lol :roll: )On Oliva's papers what is she down as? Pink & Chocolate? Spotted for the markings?This is all very interesting....much more so than Dane colors really as there are more combinations and then of course the variable of having a HL and PP gene thrown in the mix. :D There is an on going study on Dane color genetics and the results get posted on the GDCA website. It's interesting and insightful..especially if you are a breeder and like to know color possibilities that could be thrown in a litter....but what I love now is they offer testing to see if your dane is a carrier for the double merle gene....several harl breeders were excited about it as well as the testing for the piebald factor.It would be wonderful if the Crested parent club could have such a study on Cresteds...I believe the results would be pretty interesting. Which BTW- what is the Cresteds parent club website?? Do they have an illustrated standard by any chance??Thanks again Chelsey...great info and I'll read that link in it's entirity this evening. :D

#5
TexasChic

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Thanks!!! Very interesting....the blue and the black in Cresteds is like it is in Danes so I have a grasp of that one (maybe it's like that in all breeds come to think about it) ;) With black being dominant..say you bred a black to a spotted like Oliva...I would assume that the outcome would be predominately solid? And black to black breeding would produce black and no spots right? Or is there such a thing as a crested that is spotted, but the spotting being true black (not slate)??I didn't know you could add colors on AKC though...when registering you fill in the color code number so is there a way to get a number for a color not on the list?? And Oliva...she is just gorgeous. :) I told hubby one of these days I'll get a spotty baby like her (his reply was.."What..we have 2 already!!" lol :roll: )On Oliva's papers what is she down as? Pink & Chocolate? Spotted for the markings?This is all very interesting....much more so than Dane colors really as there are more combinations and then of course the variable of having a HL and PP gene thrown in the mix. :D There is an on going study on Dane color genetics and the results get posted on the GDCA website. It's interesting and insightful..especially if you are a breeder and like to know color possibilities that could be thrown in a litter....but what I love now is they offer testing to see if your dane is a carrier for the double merle gene....several harl breeders were excited about it as well as the testing for the piebald factor.It would be wonderful if the Crested parent club could have such a study on Cresteds...I believe the results would be pretty interesting. Which BTW- what is the Cresteds parent club website?? Do they have an illustrated standard by any chance??Thanks again Chelsey...great info and I'll read that link in it's entirity this evening. :D

#6
Chelsey

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[quote name='TexasChic]Thanks!!! Very interesting....the blue and the black in Cresteds is like it is in Danes so I have a grasp of that one (maybe it's like that in all breeds come to think about it) ;) With black being dominant..say you bred a black to a spotted like Oliva...I would assume that the outcome would be predominately solid? And black to black breeding would produce black and no spots right? Or is there such a thing as a crested that is spotted' date=' but the spotting being true black (not slate)??[/quote']There can be true black spotteds. My tripper that Bebe just had was a true black spotted and was awfully pretty. [quote]I didn't know you could add colors on AKC though...when registering you fill in the color code number so is there a way to get a number for a color not on the list?? [/quote]Yep! There are other options![quote]And Oliva...she is just gorgeous. :) I told hubby one of these days I'll get a spotty baby like her (his reply was.."What..we have 2 already!!" lol :roll: )[/quote]I adore Miss Livi too! LOL She's such a lady. [quote]On Oliva's papers what is she down as? Pink & Chocolate? Spotted for the markings?[/quote]Olivia is reistered a white and red spotted. Olivia is a really odd color. I have only ever seen one other like her and it was her aunt.

#7
Chelsey

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Oh I forgot. Solid to solid breedings can still produce spots especially if spots are in the pedigree. Cresteds are riddiculously hard to predict in colored because there are so many different colors and combos. If Olivia were bred to a solid black the pups would most likely take after the black.Olivia's coloring is not something that pops up very often. You will see palomino spotteds but livi is a very DARK brown with lots of pigment. If she was bred to a true black spotted you'd probably get black spots possibly some other colors. But you could also get solids! Cresteds are near impossible to predict. Black is about the only thing that is really consistant.

#8
TexasChic

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Oliva is red and white??? Nifty! I can't really tell from her pic but I thought she had pink skin at first glance. Do you have a close up pic that shows off her skin color really well?? She is simply gorgeous...since she's red and white I'm betting I won't find one exactly like her...but I do like the ones that have the pink skin with the tannish color spots (would that be palomino spotting?) as well.....Of course can't get another for a LONG time...but ONE OF THESE DAYS :D lolDoes anyone have a picture of a chocolate Crested (HL) or perhaps one with chocolate spotting?? Love to see if if you do :)And how do you go about registering a color that isn't on the registration application?? Meaning, where do you find the number code needed for the colors not listed?? I would have never though you could do that, but in reality since the standard says pretty much any color, it makes sense that you would need an option to be able to choose more than what is on the list.

#9
Chelsey

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Okay here comes some more....To get another self colored crested out of livi the male she is bred to would also have to carry that color. So there woudl have to be one back in the pedigree of the male. Also to get those types of colors you dont have to have a self colored parent, ust two parents that carry the gene

#10
TexasChic

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Sorry..define "Self Colored" :oops:

#11
Chelsey

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Olivia could be considered a lot of different things by a lot of different ppl One thing I wouldnt consider her is "palomino". Livi has black eyes and her pigment is much to dark. Her spots will get chocolate colored in the summer. Some would consider her chocolate spotted. Her breeder who has been in the breed since before they were AKC recognized registered her as red and white because she didnt consider her palomino or chocolate. She's just a bit odd! LOL! Self colored is kinda an all incompassing term for dogs that do not have a black nose and arent blue. A lot of times I just refer to livi as self-colored because its easier! LOLA chocolate is going to have a dark brown nose and dark brown skin. Jennifer Young has a lovely chocolate puff named Buster Brown. I think he is on her site at www.shidachinesecresteds.com (i didnt look that up so it might be wrong. But her kennel name is shida) A lot of times the chocolates will have a lighter more hazel-ish eye. Take a look at Buster and that should give you an idea. Okay I shall return with more pics of Livi. :wink:

#12
Chelsey

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Also there is no different really between white and pink. I still can't understand why there is even different terms. A white skinned crested is also a pink skinned crested. There is no way to get around that.

#13
Chelsey

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Oookay! Here is livi before she had any spots whatsoever.[siteimg:326eed2745]166[/siteimg:326eed2745]Here is Olivia's body spots[siteimg:326eed2745]316[/siteimg:326eed2745]Face and nose[siteimg:326eed2745]447[/siteimg:326eed2745][siteimg:326eed2745]704[/siteimg:326eed2745]And to blow your mind just a little more. My bayden is a slate spotted and my bebe is a slate solid..... That pretty much should show you the far reaching range of slate!!! LOL!!!Bayden[siteimg:326eed2745]1777[/siteimg:326eed2745]Bebe[siteimg:326eed2745]4347[/siteimg:326eed2745]

#14
TexasChic

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Also there is no different really between white and pink. I still can't understand why there is even different terms. A white skinned crested is also a pink skinned crested. There is no way to get around that.

LOL...that makes sense..I too was wondering why they had both options :? Since Livi has black eyes you wouldn't peg her "Palomino"...so is this saying that a dog that would truely be considered a "Palomino" (either solid skin color, or palomino spotted) would have lighter eye color?? Say Hazel or something in that category??And to note..I didn't even know eye color could be anything other than "dark" and then the blue eyes I have seen....so I'm also going to assume eye shade can vary to some degree and could be possibly be related to the pigment of the dog??Geez...lool my head is spinning!! No wonder no one has jumped in to do an "official" genectic study on Crested colors!! lol

#15
TexasChic

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Aww..I'm jealous..your babies are just stunning!!And I see Livi's dark eyes, and self colored nose...also see how they could put "Red & White" for her color her spots have a reddish look to them...

#16
Chelsey

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There are lots of different shades of eyes. I prefer the eyes that look almost black, but a lot of times the palominos or chocolates or selfs will have a lighter brown eye. That is one of the reason I am very happy livi has a black eye and strong pigment. I wouldn't consider Livi a palomino because palominos are "fleshy colored" they really don't darken much in the sun. They stay a flesh color and their noses are flesh colored for the most part. If you can see Livi has a very dark nose and much darker pigmentation than a "flesh" color. I would pity the person who tried to take cresteds colors on! LOL Its ust near impossible and so many different shades of the same color!

#17
Leupp Pack

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We have so many people asking about the color of their Crested's. I think this would be make a great sticky!

#18
Chelsey

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LOL Lost ramblings! ::D:

#19
Leupp Pack

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Well what you call ramblings I call great information for a person like me that is clueless!:ROFL: Now that I have my new guy Lestat I was looking into what color he was and I found this! He has apricot colored ears and tail and I was trying to figure out what that would make him.:confused: I assumed he was just slate spotted.

#20
Chelsey

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You're exactly right, with the hl's you go by the skin. He's slate spotted. If he were a puff be would be white with apricot. And he is really cute!

#21
Ariel

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ah yes! and after reading this, I am now certain that Kara is def a true chocolate spotted!

#22
Chelsey

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[quote name='Ariel;703937]ah yes! and after reading this' date=' I am now certain that Kara is def a true chocolate spotted![/QUOTE']I would 100% agree with that! She's a sweetie!

#23
Kimm

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So Trixie is a puff. Mostly white with a patch of color over her rump and half her tail and one shoulder. The tips of the hair are black but then fades to rust and finally white. The same coloration happens on her head/crest. Finally her belly is pink with spots. What color would you say she is?

#24
Chelsey

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She is white and cream. Most cresteds that have cream start out as dark brown or even black which eventually creams out. With puffs you go by the coat color and with hls you go by the skin color.

#25
Kimm

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Thanks Chelsey. It will be fun to watch her color change.




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